Public sentiment is deeply polarized regarding the Israel-Hamas conflict, with a significant majority advocating for an immediate ceasefire and expressing solidarity with Palestinians. Many commenters condemn the ongoing violence and humanitarian crisis, while a minority supports Israel's military actions against Hamas, viewing them as necessary for security. The overarching theme is a call for peace and a resolution to the cycle of violence, recognizing the complexity and suffering on both sides.

Israel

Hamas

International Community

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AutoModerator

He morphed into the Eddie Murphy character from Nutty Professor.

cornbreadsdirtysheet

Must be alot of Anthony from Bostons, cause the One I been watchin is an Older White guy who always is working on his truck

BrainwashedMind

ompompush

&gt;While the U.S. was informed, its direct participation in the strike is unlikely.

That is a strange thing to say. Since April 2025, US have been moving a tremendous force of military asset to the region. An aircraft carrier group is a show of force. 3 Nimitz groups, 30 refueling planes, and the Diego Garcia loaded with bombers is preparing for war.

thedudeLA

A brave Iranian calling out moral cowards for what they are. Watch and learn James.

https://www.reddit.com/r/NewIran/comments/1lex3sl/maral_salmassi_on_the_moral_depravity_of_those/?share_id=XZ3icTP83GoMCCDwhW5nA&amp;utm_content=2&amp;utm_medium=android_app&amp;utm_name=androidcss&amp;utm_source=share&amp;utm_term=1

Agreeable_Recipe3075

What do you think of this resolution:  Some “negotiations”, Israel agrees to no regime change and to ceasefire/peace treaty and Iran agrees to allow US B2s and 30k MOP bombs to strike Fordo to destroy it, forget paper treaties about enrichment, UN inspectors etc….Is that the makings of a deal?

jackl24000

There’s no operation in Gaza. There is a genocide happening in Gaza by israel occupation forces

wowzasina

For those who are interested in genuine, serious analysis on Iran, Times of Israel senior analyst Haviv Rettig Gur interviews several people with relevant insights. Each is about 50-60 min.

[Iran is Imploding](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG07f0-W2nc&amp;list=PLwrSkTAO0GeRuqiXYvkJ-kAqcAqWAoM30&amp;index=10)

[Taking on the Ayatollahs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h6q6kOBpDU&amp;list=PLwrSkTAO0GeRuqiXYvkJ-kAqcAqWAoM30&amp;index=3)

[Iran faces a humbler, more dangerous Israel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzPr186GUk4&amp;list=PLwrSkTAO0GeRuqiXYvkJ-kAqcAqWAoM30&amp;index=2)

[Regime change in Iran? What the 1979 revolution can teach us](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_5guYRV6Hs&amp;list=PLwrSkTAO0GeRuqiXYvkJ-kAqcAqWAoM30&amp;index=1)

And from The Free Press

[How Trump and Bibi outfoxxed Iran](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqbeJWI9F4M) \- complex analysis of division within the Republican party on Israel, geopolitics, Israel's incredible long game and preparation showing how far they've infiltrated the IRGC, how Trump views the region and what his goals are

Who will win the Iran/Israel war with *Actual* analysts Niall Ferguson and Dexter Filkins

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dQeLEG4vCLA

And everything you need to know about Iran’s nuclear program, and what the endgame looks like, with David Albright

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bS4DJFlqIxs

Hm, "James M. Dorsey Explains"  I wander. Can we explain to James M. Dorsey? :)  
I very much doubt that regime change is a target of Israel's operation. I think some man by name James M. Dorsey made it up :) I would think that Israel leadership, who are very much aware of situation on the ground there, do not have much hope for "regime change" - especially without direct US involvement (and it does not look like that going to happen). So their real goal to damage military potential of Iran as mach as possible and then let it go back to US arms for making a nuclear deal.  And yeah, Iran regime did "bow" with a previous nuclear deal. Naturally US not only new but participating indirectly - this amount of flight not possible without use of American  tanker air crafts.  
It is very clear that Iran regime right now really-really want that "dialogue" and I would guess it is going on right now really intense.  
Now, James, sometimes it is useful to think in terms of good and bed. Yes, there is good and bed things in this world or better and worse things. It is not just a game to view.

vovap_vovap

So many words to describe a fight in the jungle.
Eat or be eaten.
Hunt or be hunted

Few-Remove-9877

Everything James M. Dorsey says turns out to be the opposite. Another self-proclaimed leftist 'expert' who is always wrong

Amazing-Buy-1181

User reached out via ModMail. Assures this is not AI generated. I like the post and what it brings to the sub, so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Conscious_Spray_5331

Read what the Koran states about Jews and other non-believers,note how Jews and other non-believers were treated in the over 500 years of Arab  Empire,note how non-believers are treated in Arab nations and in Iran  today and how Hamas treated their Jewish victims on Oct.7,2023  and their over 200 hostages.

United_Insect8544

Expert-Duty7300

It is a hard fact without any exceptions that all wars must be funded. If the Arab and Western nations truly wanted the Hamas-Israeli war to end ,they would stop funding the ongoing war,demand that Hamas soldiers lay down their arms ,surrender and sent to another Arab country. It is also a hard fact that Gaza today is infested with fully armed Hamas soldiers who are trained and sworn to kill Israelis.Israel has no intentions to be a sacrificial lamb to accommodate the wishes of her enemies and the antiSemites of the World.

“The Palestinians” could have total freedom today -all they have to do is to stop believing in Islam and following its advocacy to kill Jews and all non-believers  including those in Israel and stop trying to impose Islam on the World as advocated by the Koran.

Hey, as an Israeli Jew, I hope the vision you articulate in the final paragraph will be realized. I am right now part of an Israeli-Palestinian dialogue group touring central Europe. I asked the Palestinians in the group what the meetings have done for them, and one of them, from the South Hebron Hills, said "therapy". I asked him what he meant by that, and he said that people are actually listening to his story and the suffering of the Palestinians. I wonder if you can relate to that, and how often you feel heard and seen.

While I support a two-state solution, I feel we have to bring all the parties together without being committed to one specific solution and work on a joint solution that keeps everyone's dignity intact and minimizes harm. We are far away from that moment right now, but we have to keep working at it. We owe it to the generations that follow.

Threefreedoms67

There will never be peace between Israel and the Arabs and Iranians if Muslims persist in their unacceptable  religious belief to impose their religion on the World. There are some other Muslim religious  beliefs which many Non-Believers and some  Muslims find highly objectionable:torture and killing those who depart from the teachings in the Koran,children being forced into early marriages,accepting lies in pursuit of religious goals,enslavement of other people  and torturing and murdering enemies.

OP thank you for your willingness to look outside the box.  Now you have to pull the lens back a little farther to try to see what the rest of us or at least I see.  I’ll try to explain.  

1.  Who’s in charge of this place?  Your leaders frankly suck rocks.  They are rich beyond being able to spend it while people cannot feed themselves.  They have purposely continued this conflict.  The PA cannot on their OWN power police and contain terror cells in the West Bank and must call in the IDF to do it for them.  Terror is ALLOWED and as long as that happens no one will take you seriously.  

2.  Trust-  too many people who have hate for their neighbors.  Need I say more?   

3.  Education- you keep a production line of terrorists rolling out.  Stop.  I’ve seen the text books.  It’s not a good look.  

4.  Demanding a military from the start?  People who demand this are frankly asking for Palestine to be wiped off the map.  Because if they become a state with no oppression to fall back on and attack- that’s what will happen.  And no one will likely blink this time.   Give it time, earn trust, focus on nation building.  

Nations aren’t handed over to terrorists.  Except Syria- I don’t think they had a choice.  That’s another problem.  

If it were only as simple as people just want to raise their children in peace.

Lexiesmom0824

Unfortunately Hamas killed a large chunk of peace Oct 7.  
  
Vivian Silver (74): A Canadian-Israeli peace activist and leader in the Women Wage Peace movement, which she co-founded after the 2014 Gaza War to advocate for a political resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. She was killed at Kibbutz Be’eri, where she lived, during the attack. Her work focused on Arab-Jewish partnership and advancing women in leadership roles. An award, the Vivian Silver Impact Award, was later established in her memory to honor her commitment to peace.  
  
Hayim Katsman (32): An Israeli peace activist killed in his home at Kibbutz Holit. He was known for his advocacy for Palestinian rights and his opposition to violence. His sibling, Noy Katsman, emphasized during his eulogy that he would have opposed retaliatory violence, reflecting his lifelong commitment to non-violence and coexistence.  
  
Bilha and Yakovi Inon: A couple killed during the attack on their home in Moshav Netiv HaAsara. Their son, Maoz Inon, a social activist and entrepreneur, has continued their legacy of peace advocacy, supporting an “all for all” hostage-prisoner exchange and calling for an end to the cycle of violence

Unfortunately there are no such souls in Gaza to counter Hamas's hate.

jirajockey

It is all a dead end - cut de sac - without inclusion of the colonial Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan which was gifted 77% of Mandatory Palestin in 1922. Whenever it is convenient for them, the King will state that "Jordan and Palestine and Palestine is Jordan."  It is time to face the fact that this is in reality the truth, and to include Jordan in any solution to provide sovereignty to Palestinians.

SKFinston

People keep thinking I’m asking for a single state, Idk where I hinted that. 

I want a TWO state solution, a real one.

One secular state for all is ideal, but it’s far from reality rn unfortunately.

No_Use7651

i pray for the same thing. my ideal is a single state where the wound can slowly heal, but two states that both reach from the river to the sea??? you've convinced me, that would also be amazing. unfortunately, as you can see from other comments here, many pro-Israelis do not want to let that happen because they see it as "defeat" and believe (despite you being right here showing the opposite) that you can not be trusted as a people.

TheCompostor

A secular state is my go-to solution, but I know it’s rather unrealistic in the current day. I hope that as history continues, the area moves toward a less violent and divided culture and instead moves towards one where all citizens have the same rights and privileges and that people are not divided physically or socially.

Leviticussy4

Israel doesn't want to have a state with you guys though. They have all the power and you have quite literally none besides terrorism and college students. How on earth do you propose another Arab nation, likely to descend into yet another dictatorship or failed states, will actually help solve any problems?

Israel and Arabs can work hand in hand, look at Jordan. But the Palestinians? I'm sorry, your culture is riddled with terrorism, extremism, and a bloodthirsty desire to murder Jews. They'll never forgive you for 10/7 - they don't have to, there's no coercion to have a solution when it's easier and far less risky to simply occupy your land.

You guys had chances. It wasn't what you wanted, but is this any better? After 10/7 you'll **never** have a state. I'm sorry, the Arabs made war on the Jews so many times that they've driven the public to the right and diminished the left (didn't help that they were killed on 10/7).

I personally support indefinite occupation of Gaza and increased settlement of the West Bank. The Arabs need to be pacified in those regions and subjected to intense deradicalization, probably for a century at least. Fixing their political bloodlust by electing terrorists is their problem to solve, not Israel's - if anything, the strategy is mostly working.

Israel is stronger than ever. It's richer than ever. Hamas is destroyed, Gaza is gonna be occupied. Hezbollah is crushed, their dicks blown off. Iran's missile defense is gone, and their most powerful attack was defeated with help from the Jordanians.

Israel wins. Israel wins. Three times, four times, five six seven a hundred times. Israel wins.

yusuf_mizrah

Just be careful where you are getting your sources. It must be a legitimate 
News cast because as you know AI and make something totally a lie from either side

Gramma_B2021

How is it going for your people so far - how many Jews currently leave "freely and openly" among Arabs in West Bank, Gaza Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt - how is it going? How many jews remained on the Jordanian-occupied West Bank and Jerusalem between 1948 and 1968?

What you are saying is not peace, it is victory. You are dreaming of a complete victory of your people, of one state Palestine from the River to the Sea. To claim it would be for both people but in reality all jews will be immediately cleansed - like you did many times before since 1948 till now on all territories under Arab/Palestinian control. Good luck with that. May it never come.

Also, Gaza is not a scattered chunk of land. Gaza was (and remains) a proper self-contained territory with two borders (Israel and Egypt) and seashore access, not an enclave. It was free from Israeli presence and occupation since 2005. It was self-governed, not reporting to any other metropoly. Essentially, sovereign for all practical purposes except not bother to declare independence and run it properly. How did your people manage leverage that opportunity to build a country, you like it?

PowerfulPossibility6

Why would the world possibly reward Palestine with a country after the only thing they’ve brought to the world is hate and terrorism? Serious question not trolling

[deleted]

This is such an inspiring post.

You're own journey shows us that the only way we'll get toward a solution which promotes peace, justice, security, and dignity for both Israelis and Palestinians is for people to move past toxic hate and realize the other side is human.

I would like to share that from what I've seen, the hate is deeply entrenched on both sides such that the process of undoing it will be long and difficult. It is for this reason I will argue that any solution at any point in the future would have to be founded on separation. The unfortunate political reality is that a Palestinian state would have to be founded in just the West Bank and the Gaza strip, and Gaza can only be added once Hamas is no longer in power. However on a more positive note, I'll add that such a solution does not need to be permanent and once Israel and Palestine have had a stable coexistence for a few decades, maybe something like a confederation can be considered.

Humorous_forest

What do you propose the borders should be? I don’t see how you can have two continuous states from the River to the sea (with neither one being separated into chunks but both being completely continuous states) unless you divide it horizontally - like one side gets all the north and the other side gets all the south. 

Which do you think Palestinians should get, the north or the south? Or do you have other proposed borders that fulfill the requirements youre suggesting? The geometry isnt geometrying for me.

Letshavemorefun

It’s not an easy solution because many Palestinians don’t care about death, only land. You can talk to any average Israeli like myself and we will always say we want peace. The settlements are the only tool to deincentivize attacks. Double purpose as less land means less land to attack out of. Strategically spund U.N. Muslim appeasement crew can cry and call it illegal all they want. They have been part of the problem and nothing else works. I as a lot of my friends want peace for our Palestinian brothers and sisters, as I have many Palestinian friends that I’ve grown close to. 
But, peace will come when they love their children more than wanting to burn down the entire Jewish state and I’m not saying Israelis are perfect, we aren’t. You will always have bad apples. ✌🏾

nadsow

OP you need to be clearer what you mean by a 2 states solution

&gt;Now, I’m all in for a real two-state solution. Not the half-baked ones that keep getting tossed around, but something that actually works for both Palestinians and Israelis.

but also

&gt;a Palestinian state that’s whole, with real borders, from the river to the sea (a river to the sea for both ISRAELI and Palestinians

Let me also explain to you something about talking with Israelis:

* **“Why should we trust you with A?”**
* **“No, and B is completely unfair.”**
* **“No again, C is completely impractical and I will explain why in detail.”**
* **“I like this guy, he's always bringing interesting points, perhaps we should give him a chance?”**

seek-song

\&gt; What I’m talking about is a Palestinian state that’s whole, with real borders, from the river to the sea (a river to the sea for both ISRAELI and Palestinians

I think it's a given that only land that will be traded for peace is inside the green line. Defensible borders for Israel are absolutely non-negotiable. Even if you chose the narrowest point to extend the Green Line area to the sea, where it is 9 miles long, you're now dividing Israel in two. This area was targeted heavily during the second intifada for just that reason.  
  
Sderot to Lahav is about 22.3 miles, so a subway from the Southern West Bank (Judea) to Gaza would be 25-30 miles and is definitely with the range of possibility. I guess you could widen southern Palestine's space and that would make the subway shorter, but you're up against either lots of Israeli displacement or acquiring desert.

Deciheximal144

It takes a lot to look past our emotional impulses and our understanding of the world and see the humanity on either sides of this. Most Israelis want to live in peace as I’m sure most Palestinians do. It’s extremists on both sides that high jack the narrative and create a zero sum game. Amen brother, I hope one day there is a Palestinian state peacefully next to Israel.

Wiseguy144

I'm not Jewish, Israeli, Arab or Muslim. Having said that, I am sending love and prayers towards you, your family and all innocent people suffering in this horrible conflict. I too pray for peace wish for respect between and with all people, in and out of the Middle East. We are all human and therefore have more in common than not...I too pray for a Middle East that has human rights, real freedom and real respect...

I think it is wonderful you were able to overcome hatred. Yeah, hatred is just something that keeps everyone down ... it hurts yourself more than the target of the hate...

I understand your desire for a state and I too pray for one day when both states can live together in peace...

I am not really sure how long that is going to take for this to happen. My guess is decades ... the Palestinian leadership has betrayed not only their own Palestinian people, but also the Israelis and the surrounding Arab countries... right now, nobody, not Israelis or the surrounding Muslim countries, trusts Palestinians at all to run their own state. That is the REAL reason why none of these countries are accepting Palestinian refugees, the surrounding Muslim countries, under their fake tears, look at you and your people as traitors, extremists and terrorists but are too cowardly to just tell you this upfront. They are certainly no friends of you or your people I can say that.. I would say they are pro-Palestinian in the street and Kahanists in the sheets... actually the surrounding Arab countries hate Palestinians more than Rabbi Meir Kahane ever did, so that is saying something...

I do see in the near future Palestinians getting self-rule but not a state... that "ship" sailed decades ago. Oslo was the chance, but the Palestinian leadership messed this up...

quicksilver2009

Now that your anger and hatred is gone, take the next step. Commit to nonviolence. Disarming and returning the hostages would be proof of a commitment to nonviolence. That’s also the only way a peaceful solution can evolve. 

The past failures can all be attributed to fear of violence by both Arabs and Israelis with the assumption that violence was the only possible response to violence.  A self fulfilling prophecy. 

The settlements are not going away. However, they can be contained. Surrounding Israel with a Palestinian state could only happen over time after trust was established that a return to violence wasn’t inevitable.  

If you can’t wait for trust or  think Palestinians have waited too long already, consider all the bad decisions made by Palestinians in the past because some couldn’t wait. 

Yasser Arafat refused a deal 25 years ago when no settlements existed. Israeli Settlers were even forcibly removed from Gaza. 

As long as Palestinians accept arms from Arab states, peace will just be a fantasy and Palestinians will suffer. 

A commitment to peace starts with trust and nonviolence. Land will follow.

ajmampm99

So Gaza would be connected to the WB through the Egyptian border? Leaving Israel with no border with Egypt? I don't know if this would be possible (Egypt itself wouldn't accept), but I think if more people like you were on the negotiation table we would reach a fair deal for both populations. At this point I think a 2 State Federation would be the most realistic approach, but I guess we will have to wait Gaza be fully annexed before any peace deals can be made again

biel188

Does anyone actually think this is a real person? Or a position that someone has taken???

2dumb2learn

So land swaps to create contiguous states? I'm in favor. In your vision, who gets the north and who gets the south?

sar662

As soon as you get a state, it will become another Gaza, a terrorists hive.

let's say you're honest, your delusion about coexistence will shatter against radical Islam. before you ask for a state, let's see you maintain a functioning society.

Terrible_Product_956

I'm an Israeli. I'm saddened and ashamed of what we have become. We're doing terrible things to your people. Frigthenly similar to things  that been done to family in Europe in WW2 by the Germans.

Yes we have some good people, as do you.
But we have many bad people. A lot of hate. And so do you.

Our problem is not land. It is hate.

jonclark_

What do you think of the camp David accord or the Trump plan. See  [https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Peace-to-Prosperity-0120.pdf](https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Peace-to-Prosperity-0120.pdf) with a map on page 45 with tunnels connecting the different Palestinian territories. The Camp David in 2000 was more generous at [https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/map-of-the-israeli-offer-for-west-bank-final-status](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/map-of-the-israeli-offer-for-west-bank-final-status) . Both were rejected by Palestinian governments, and now we have war.

seducedbytruth

&gt;Stop the settlements, stop carving up our land, and give us a state that’s not just a name on paper.  
  
basic rights, real freedom, real respect

It's easy to use buzzwords and the same old repeated tropes (the first part). Prove it as a society, prove the 2nd part not just as another buzz phrase but a real change with a society that's able to criticize and analyze itself and it's faults.

Shachar2like

You are right. That's the only solution, and if history is a guide, there will be a joint Israel/Palestine single state, though it may take a generation.

Efficient-Front3035

There were too good proposals, Barak in 2000 and Olmert in 2006 which were rejected by Arafat and Abbas. What was wrong with them and what you change to make them acceptable ?

manhattanabe

&gt; Giving Palestinians scattered chunks of land isn’t a state

Then how about a three state solution in which both Gaza and the West Bank each become independent states of their own?

TheoriginalTonio

No palestinian state.it will only be used to attack Israel

Future_Childhood1365

Do you mean whole as in Gaza and West Bank fully connected to eachother as has been proposed in the past via land corridor or territorial swap with contiguity?

That’s been thoroughly discussed and proposed as a core component of all the serious 2SS negotiations. 

The WB would be given 91-97% to Palestinians with the remaining 3-9% or so given from Israeli territory in a land swap deal as well

Like in 2000, 2001, 2003 (unofficial), 2008. Palestinian leaders rejected or counteroffered but did not accept these.

Ok-Cryptographer7424

We’re already at the point where any video could be AI generated or altered. It’s going to be practically impossible to have good discussions or form opinions using any sources until we figure this technology out.

Lumpy_Promise1674

I think these are good points of skepticism regarding this conflict and breaking news found on social media in general. Many people have a vested interest in one side or the other being the "bad guy" often with the implication that the other side therefore must be the "good guy". 

However, history is rarely that clear cut and what we usually get are bad guys and worse guys. But to the families of kids blown to pieces in their beds, I imagine that quickly becomes a distinction without difference.

GarbageCleric

Good points. I think it is important to rely on credible media outlets rather than social media, or highly ideological media outlets.

Neither Russia or Iran could save their tyrant puppet Assad from falling, a huge geopolitical blow to them both. The aid they will give to each other is likely to be limited.

Crashed_teapot

I've seen two videos floating around Instagram that I wish I had the means to check the veracity of. 

1. Video claiming to be a band performing from over the Lebanese border as the rockets rained down on Israel. 

2. Video of either a nightclub or a wedding or some sort of celebration with Abba playing in the background. Everyone looking over and recording the missiles raining down on Israel. 

Don't know where or when they are from.

ClockworkJim

I know there were claims that Iran shot down several F-35s, but i believe all the evidence provided was found to be AI generated.

Edit: [For Example](https://i.redd.it/jv8ct2d1a97f1.jpeg)

QuietTank

/u/AnimateDuckling (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.

All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1l8o74x/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_assuming_israels_security/), in /r/DeltaLog.

Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.

^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

DeltaBot

First of all I'll point out that you've limited discussion quite severely, as you are asking for 100% buy in on Israel's claims. This seems unrealistic considering not just that almost all their claims are unsupported by evidence, but that we have found occasions of them actively lying such as their lies about the medical aid convoy they attacked.

Not only that, but you only want to talk about Israel's actions in the war and not any actions within the wider generational conflict.

I'd say even working under these restrictions, it's still very easy to point out that their actions are wrong. Israel has obligations under international law to ensure that the civilian population are not targeted and not disproportionately harmed by military actions.

Any atrocity and war crime could be justified if "Well it helps us win our fight" was a rationale. Starving Palestinians may starve Hamas, but it also starves civilians and its civilians which are disproportionally targeted and impacted by this hence its status as a war crime.

Even with your very severe restrictions, Israel's actions are wrong based on contemporary morality and law.

Toverhead

What’s missing from your argument here is your definition of ‘sensible and justified’. Because under this argument, it seems as if the definition is ‘if Israel states that an action would weaken Hamas or prevent Hamas from accessing supplies’. So I’m really asking here- what would the limit to a justified or sensible response be? Could millions of civilian casualties be justified as long as an action ultimately ‘weakens Hamas’? 

Might these actions ‘weaken Hamas’ or ‘prevent Hamas from accessing supplies’? Yes. Does that mean it’s sensible and justified though if it causes mass civilian casualties, starvation and disease? 

Even if everything Israel stated were true, it would still violate international law based on collective punishment.  Even if the goal is to prevent Hamas from abusing humanitarian aid, if the only way to do this is through restricting aid which ultimately causes widespread malnutrition, disease or death to civilians- that still qualifies as collective punishment. This is especially apparent in #4, starving a region out to starve Hamas out is collective punishment. 

And ultimately, based on history, the actions Israel’s taking will just prolong the conflict- which counters the justification that these actions will help de escalate or limit the conflict. The suffering of Gazans has historically increased Hamas’s appeal. Collective punishment or restriction of aid validates Hamas’s narrative that resistance is the only option.

Simple_Dimensions

Was this ruination of a standard Palestinian vegetable stand a legitimate and necessary action to counter the actions of Hamas? https://m.youtube.com/shorts/sgavK-FSh_8

I’m not saying every military action is illegitimate, but there are lots that are simply vindictive and only serve to radicalize those who are not already

theboondocksaint

Does your view include (as in are justified if we take Israel at its word) all attacks Israel carries out, grabing Syrian land, and the like?, or is it limited to the 4 points (and more on that line) outlined in the post's body?

LauAtagan

Militarily it makes perfect sense. 


But the outcome of this war will not be decided militarily. It hangs on whether the Palestinian society will be able to transform to a better one and whether Israel will be able to keep its foreign backing.


Israel will win here, but these actions in Gaza with a lack of an endgame may well result in a strategic defeat. If they lose support of the Europeans and US Democrats, while creating a new generation of upset Palestinians, it will not help them one bit.

Downtown-Act-590

Collective punishment, levelling apartment complexes and strikes in refugee camps are morally wrong and illegal. 

Even that aside though, presuming you don’t mind the five figure death toll, you can’t ‘win’ with this level of civilian casualties. There’s a tweet which goes "If you eradicated hamas but killed my entire family in the process my first move would be to start Hamas 2", and every day the IDF is instilling such a burning hatred of themselves in a new generation. 

Hamas only has power because Palestinians need a liberation force.

LachrymarumLibertas

What about the fact that Israel funded Hamas to destabilize the Palestinians. Doesn't that bother you at all? After realizing Epstein was likely blackmailing our politicians for Israel, I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas was Mossad.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

name0000000000

Your argument is that Israel is justified in committing war crimes and advocating for ethnic cleansing as long as it hurts Hamas's strategic capabilities?

jimmytaco6

Except Israel has committed war crimes, including the starvation, but also kidnaooing, the use of human shields and white phosphorous.

Not to mention that it is currently completely ineffective. Only 20 percent of Hamas infrastructure has been destroyed while 80 percent of civilian infrastructure has been destroyed.

And finally, your premise is just weird in general. Like you can say the same about any country committing warcrimes. For a rather extreme example: "Nazi Germany's security claims about the jews are entirely accurate, their current actions (including genocide) are the most sensible and justified steps."

holiestMaria

I don’t know how to cyv - since the stipulation in the title is the answer to the question. It’s why even when caught out Israel will use Hamas was there as a reasoning. 

I can definitely see you’re well educated and read up on the war - more than me I’m sure. 

But simply put - restrictions on aid - no matter the justification - do not benefit anyone. And at what cost of life is it worth for retaliation? I look at the Hamas conversation in all this as less destroying them and removing them from earth - to just creating the next generation of terrorists

Slight-Obligation390

&gt;then the actions Israel has taken in this war are, for the most part, not only defensible but perhaps the most effective way to safeguard Israeli civilians and bring about a swifter end to hostilities.

Can you start listing examples of these actions that are for the most part defensible and effective? Even if we agree to make the dumbest assumption ever, which is not even that Israel is 100% honest, but even 50%, and ignore the decades of history of proofs about Israel lies and deceits over and over again just to please your ignorant bias... really, just disregarding all of that, then can you list those defensible actions?

* Is preventing humanitarian aid, critical food and medicine, from reaching civilians and children defensible?
* Is covering up for and defending sexual assault and prisoner abuse defensible?
* Is annexation of land from its indigenous people, even outside of Gaza, and even outside of occupied Palastine, defensible?
* Is mass bombing of heavily populated areas, and deliberate targeting of children, press, and even international aid groups, defensible?
* Is covering up for and protecting war criminals, who even recorded and streamed their own crimes on social media, beyond any doubt, defensible?
* Is blocking the press, even from reliable western groups, who have expressed willingness to handle their own security detail, in order for Israel to be the only party controlling the narrative and censoring information, also defensible?
* Is bombing the only, unoccupied, unarmed, fertility clinic and storage in Gaza, wiping out the last hope for numerous Palestinian bloodlines to continue, also defensible?
* Are attacks on freedom of speech, defensible?

look... honestly... one can spend hours listing every indefensible war crime and general crime against humanities in general which Israel has been conducting for decades, on and off war.  Israel has been in fact committing a genocide. While Hamas can arguably be blamed of intent, without the means to carry it out, Israel is factually carrying it out! And that is that defensible?!

I am sure in some twisted inhumane logic, nuking two whole cities in Japan, which are not even military targets, was effective in bringing Japan down to its knees faster, but was it also defensible? Because today we do not see it that way, or do you?

Also Israel's actions so far have only resulted in increasing and broadening the hostilities against Israelis and jews everywhere. So... it is not just inhumane to claim that these actions are defensible, they are factually ineffective!

DieselZRebel

I got stuck at assuming the claims are accurate. There is zero chance that the info is not at the very least manipulated to justify existing plans. It's war, PR is important.

BigBreach83

You make many assunptions in your CMV that need to be adressed first.

You assume that morality is objective, you seem to believe there is an objective right and wrong. This extends to your view that "justified" and "sensible" things can exist.

Accepting this were the case, we would have to agree on what "moral good" is and agree on it before we can decide if Israels actions fit this shared description of moral good.

Because we do not have the time, I will propose a definition of moral good:

-To mininise the suffering of all human beings.

Now using this definition of moral good, Israel is not carrying morally good actions. If in your definition of morally good, israeli suffering or suffering of your own countrymen matter more than the suffering of others, then I would agree with you.

But if we are first to agree that all suffering is just as wrong, then I will argue that Israel is not conducting morally good and therefore unjustified actions.

I can then describe how Israel could have mininised suffering many times over and brought the conflict to a resolution much faster than they are doing.

Remind you that we must first agree that all suffering is equally wrong, if we believe suffering of some groups is less valuable than suffering of others then I agree with you, but that means genocide for example would be justified.

Swinthila

I would argue that all of the measures do make sense in themselves. I also share your assessment of the situation - Imagine any European country having such a neighbor and how they would react. 

What I am struggling with, is that the measures have a diminishing result. Hamas is militarily dismantled (I think they killed all top commanders by now). Is in this situation the political shit storm you put yourself by bypassing UN food distribution really worth it (again from a strategic perspective). I struggle to see the upsides here. 

Especially, the opportunity that Israel created in the north to establish a better relation to its northern neighbors, it might make more sense to focus on this. 

Mcwedlav

&gt;Hamas as a terrorist group: Aims to commit genocide against Jews

This one point is a massive deviation from the rest of your post. Mostly all of your other points about Hamas, and every single one of your points about Israel, are tactical minutae about tunnels and supplies and whatnot, and here is one moralized strategical goal with no equivalent one given for Israel, you just sort of assumed that Israel is aiming for "the most effective way to safeguard Israeli civilians and bring about a swifter end to hostilities.", but not as one of your presumed true claims from them, nor as one of their actions as they are observed from the outside.

Putting aside an itemized list of tactics that Israel is using, even the neutrally confirmed ***overall outcome*** of what they are ***doing***, is that they are inflicting a worse combatant/civilian kill ratio in Gaza, than Hamas did on October 7th.

You can't just put a sticker on Hamas that they are "evil terrorists" according to Israel, and then ***not even consider the facts of what Israelis fundamentally are***, and what their goals are, but uncritically dig into how you would "defend civilians" if you were them.

Even if we are putting aside all former knowledge of politics and history, then on it's face, we are still only seeing **two groups who are trying to do the same thing to each other,** and one is merely more efficient at it.

Genoscythe_

Starting form your assumption of "100%" correctdness (which is a bit weird and limiting) you're basically saying that with the objective of effectiveness, conventions on warfare or human rights can basically be ignored. Which in turn sets that precedent that if in the right, civilians and other actors are legitimate targets something that seems to be a pretty dangerous road to go on.

Then there is also the pratical aspect that Hamas is not match for the IDF, which adds responsability (and possibility) of conducting themselves honourably while still pursuing their goals.

There is no difference in this situation as to an hypothetical scenario where to find one terrorist, an army starts shooting random people in his villagee knowing that will force someone known to them to accuse them. Can it work? Quite possibly, but it should be obvious that is out of reach of any law abiding force, but again Israel is clearly a lawless and inhumane state (at least with the present people in power)

Rosimongus

The problem with Israeli and Zionist claims about Hamas is that they’re not relevant and are extremely incoherent. 

&gt; Hamas as a terrorist group: 

John Brown was a “terrorist”. Nelson Mandela was a “terrorist”. Some the most idolized human rights activists in world history were “terrorists”. Criticizing Hamas for being “terrorists” when most Americans and people in general idolize that is nothing more then a racist double standard.

Furthermore, who determines what a “terrorist” is? Why is their definition of “terrorist” relevant?

&gt; Aims to commit genocide against Jews, 

Saying this implies that Hamas or their supporters have some vendetta against Jewish people in the USA and other parts of the world. But that’s not true because when Hamas and Palestinians refer to “Jews” in their charter or dialogue they’re referring to Israelis.

&gt; uses its own civilians and children as human shields, 

Human shields as a term would imply non-consent but most Palestinians support armed resistance against Israel.

&gt; builds tunnels and infrastructure for military purposes under or within civilian areas, 

That’s what resistance groups are supposed to do. Most famous resistance groups hid amongst civilians. Otherwise they wouldn’t be resisting anything now would they?

&gt; is often aided by individuals working in aid organizations and UN bodies, and diverts or seizes humanitarian aid. Essentially, all of the most serious claims.

It’s almost as it Human rights activists realize that Zionist are racist bigots and want them to be removed

TurbulentArcher1253

You are interpreting the situation as "Israel is preventing fuel and materials from entering gaza" while the situation is "Israel is actively killing dozens of civilians everyday, through blind bombing, starving and preventing basic necessities such as food and water and medicine from entering the entire sector while claiming that they are fighting a terrorist entity".

Until a month ago, Israel prevented any aid trucks from entering the sector not even from israeli borders, multiple israeli associations pushed for sending aid into the sector only for the state to refuse.

It isn't about hamas at this point, it is about actively killing the Palestinians.

ricknightwood13

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The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) announced the killing of Hamas' naval commander Ramzi Ramadan Abd Ali Saleh in an airstrike in northern Gaza, along with other key Hamas personnel. This military action comes amid ongoing discussions for a ceasefire and prison exchange between Israel and Hamas, following a deadly escalation that began with Hamas's attacks on Israel on October 7, 2023. The violence has resulted in significant casualties and humanitarian crises on both sides, prompting urgent calls for a lasting truce.

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